親近善士 親近善士，共相提攜，做向法的指月標

Interviewed by Wendy Chuang & Teresa Cheng
Transcribed by Wendy Chuang & Alan Chiu

Happiness and suffering comes from our mind, not from outside; I always thought that attachment was wonderful. When I heard the Buddha’s teaching and looked at my experience, I think the Buddha was really right.

Q: How old were you when you met Buddhism?

A: I was 24. I was teaching elementary school, and I was going to graduate school.

Q: Could you talk about the reason that you became a nun?

A: I grew up during the Vietnam War. As a young person I had a lot of questions. I was wondering why they are fighting a war commending peace. I was wondering what the purpose of life was. I couldn't find any answers for these kinds of questions from adults such as my parents, family, friends or teachers. Nobody could give me answers that satisfied me. Similarly, when I went to the religious people that I grew up with, their answers didn’t make any sense to me either. Their whole idea of God never makes sense to me. “Why does the God create, and if Ｈe created, why didn’t Ｈe do a better job?” I couldn’t figure it out, so when I went to college I just abandoned religion altogether, but I still have those questions. Later on, I was in graduate school and I was teaching, I saw a flyer about a meditation course led by two Tibetan monks, so I decided to go. I was only going to go for part of the course, but I wind up staying for all 3 weeks, because it was so interesting. One of the things they said was that you didn’t have to believe in everything they said. I really liked that idea, because I was so tired of people telling me what the truth was, and what I have to believe, because none of that makes any sense to me. So they were the people who said, “We just teach you. You think about it and see if it makes sense to you.” So when I heard the teachings and started meditating on them, I really saw that they described my life. Even though the Buddha lived 2,500 or 2,600 years ago, what he was talking about applied to me in the modern America. I went to this meditation course in the summer of 1975, and I was supposed to go back to teaching that autumn. But Buddhism affected me so strongly that rather than going back to teach, I quitted my job and went to Nepal, because in 1975, it was very difficult to find Dharma teachers teaching in English in America. Everything is in Chinese, Japanese, or Vietnamese, and I didn’t know any of those languages. My teachers spoke English, but they lived in Nepal, so I went half way around the world; that’s what I had to do.

Q: So at that time you chose Tibetan Buddhism because you had no choice?

A: First of all, I didn’t know there were different Buddhist traditions; all I knew was that I went to these masters and they helped me, so I came back again and again. I never really knew until much later that there are different traditions and things like that. I love my teacher’s writing and I have been going to them.

Q: What is the difference before and after you met Buddhism?

A: Huge differences! I was so confused before, because things didn’t make sense. What Buddhism gave me was a worldview that could explain my life experience, why things are the way they are, and what I can do to possibly make a change. One of the changes was that I stopped being confused. Another change was when I was in college, together with the confusion (who am I; what I want to do; nobody loves me; how all the kids feel when they are making the transition to adulthood) I had a lot of depression. So I went through this period feeling so low in spirit; what is the purpose of it? Since I met Buddhism, I had none of that, because Buddhism establishes the purpose and meaning of life, and there is something positive that we can do. It makes a huge difference! In terms of anger, Buddhism also helps me so much with my anger. It helps me to be much more tolerant of people, much more accepting, and also accepting myself. I still have a long way to go, and I’m still in progress.

Q: What inspired you in Buddhism that led you to become a nun?

A: What really impacted me in the Buddhist teachings was the whole idea that happiness and suffering comes from our mind, not from outside; and the Buddha also pointed out how selfishness, anger, and attachment are the causes of suffering, because I never really thought of that before. I always thought that attachment was wonderful. When I heard the Buddha’s teaching and looked at my experience, I think the Buddha was really right. When he talked about ignorance, anger, and attachment cause suffering, that is true. When he talked about karma, that makes a lot of sense to me. Because when I was growing up, I was always thinking: “Why are things the way they are? Why was I born me?” I grew up in America, and I was so aware of people who were poor in the world, and I kept thinking: “How come I had such a comfortable life?” I think it's not right; it's not fair; how come it's like this. So when I heard about karma, that explained to me how the present situation evolved; and when I heard about compassion and bodhicitta, it explained to me what I can do to change the situation, because it didn’t feel right to me. So Buddhism gave me that kind of avenue.

Q: What Buddhist book has affected you the most?

A: I have to say Lama Tsong-kha-pa’s book Lam rim chen mo – it translates as Stages of the Path to Enlightenment – has affected me the most, because in it he took all the sutras and commentaries and laid it out in a gradual way. When the Buddha taught, he wandered and gave different teaching to different people, but here we are, and we don’t know what to study first, what to study next, and how does it fit together. That book is very good in presenting it in a very methodical way. First you meditate on this, then you mediate on that and so on. I appreciate its methodical approach. Another thing that attracted me to Buddhism is, for example, everybody said, “Love thy neighbor as thy self”, but I didn’t see anybody who did, and I couldn’t either, because you can’t just say to yourself that I got to love everybody; that doesn’t change how you feel. But what Lama Tsong-kha-pa did is he took the Buddhist teachings and arranged them in a way so that you can see how to go about changing your mind, and becoming seeing other sentient beings in a more affectionate way, developing equanimity, love and compassion towards them. He taught you exactly how to meditate in order to develop that. I really like that. You can’t just say “I should be patient. I should love them,” because “I should” don’t change our minds. Especially telling ourselves how we should feel, that didn’t change how we do feel. We need a method to look into our mind to see how what we're feeling is incorrect: When I’m angry, I'm not perceiving reality correctly. That’s why my anger is something to be abandoned, because it does not perceive things as they are. This kind of analytical way, to analytically look into the mind and change it, is very important to me. So I think overall that is probably the book that influenced me the most.

Q: What was the most memorable phrase you can remember from your teachers?

A: There are two that come to my mind:

1. One time Lama Yeshe had asked me to lead a meditation course. I was a new nun at that time and didn’t feel like I knew very much to share with other people, so I went to Lama and I told him that “I can’t do this. I don’t’ know enough.” He looked at me and replied “You are selfish.” “WOW” was my response. So what that meant to me was that even though I’m not a bodhissatva, I should still help in a way that I’m capable of, instead of refusing it. So that really made an impact on me.
2. I remembered very clearly another thing that he did. He was talking to all the sanghas at that time, and he picked up his pearl beads and said, “Your mantra should be: I’m the servant to others. I’m the servant to others. I’m the servant to others.” He clicked his beads and said, “This is what you should remember over and over again.” So these are the two that came to mind. I have a lot of other teachings with my teachers, too.

Q: Does teaching elementary school help you in teaching dharma?

A: I was always learning how to teach. When I studied education, it was during the time of Open Classroom. They were encouraging teachers to let students explore and learn according to their interest. So that may have influenced me a lot in terms of having a lot of discussion groups. But I haven’t consciously taken anything I learned about teaching and use it in teaching dharma. No, I haven’t done that.

Q: After you ordained, have you ever read the Bible again?

A: I never read the Bible again after I ordained, but Buddhism has helped me to understand teachings from Judaism and Christianity better than I did before, because those are the two I was most familiar with as a child. I came to understand things better that I didn’t understand as a child after I have met Buddhism. But I never had much interest in the Bible to go and read it. I don’t know; it never did it for me. I tried to read it before, and I went to Sunday school, but it just made me have more questions. I tried to learn and understand it before, but it just wasn’t for me. But I have to respect the fact that it is for other people. Like at this Catholic-Buddhist nuns’ conference I just went to. It was so beautiful to see the Catholic nuns; they are wonderful women, and some of them have been ordained for forty, fifty years, and really are people with integrity and deep spirituality. At the same time, they were very interested in learning from us Buddhists about how to tame the mind, and how to work with the mind. They were asking so many questions along that line.

Q: How do you reflect on 911 and Iraqi war as a Buddhist practitioner?

A: I can’t tell anybody what their political views should be, because I don’t think that is my role. Also Buddhists may have a variety of political views. But I figure the Buddhist reflections are important. First of all, when we are harmed, to ask ourselves, “what did I do to get myself in this situation?” instead of looking outward and just blaming somebody else. My hope is that America would do some self-reflection about what did we do in relationship to other countries, that brought up so much hostility towards us. Because I think if we reflect on some of our economic policies, some of our political policies, some of the things that the CIA has done, we might find why other countries don’t trust us. We should do some self-reflection, because that’s what Buddhism has always encouraged us to do. Like the present Iraqi war, it’s very clear that we don’t have the support of the international communities. Why? Another thing along that line is to reflect on what is our motivation, because the Buddha always taught to try have genuine, pure motivation, and not a selfish one, or a fake one that looks good but is actually corrupt. In the case of the Iraqi war, we’re saying “we want to liberate the Iraqis.” but I don’t remember any Iraqis asking us to liberate them. It becomes very clear that U.S. is doing it, firstly, because it wants Iraq’s oil to support our very luxurious lifestyle; and secondly, we want a military base in the Middle East, so we can threaten other countries so they will go along with our economic policies, so that we can have more riches. With that kind of motivation no wonder other countries don’t trust us. So I think we have to, as individuals as well, look at our consumer lifestyle, because we’re only a small percentage of the world population, yet we use enormous percentage of world’s resources, and its not correct. Also because the Buddha taught us “Cherish others. Only if we take care of other people and society can we really be happy.” The world is so interconnected now, that only if we have actually served the people of other countries and meet their needs, instead of taking advantage of them, can we have happiness. So I think these are different Buddhist principles that can be used. To go learn and really help people of other countries, and do it according to their culture and their value system, and not try to make everybody become capitalist like America is, because I don’t think that is necessarily the right way for everybody. And also, really respecting other peoples’ cultures, instead of insisting that they should have our culture, where sex and violence is so prominent. Why are we exporting our fascination with sex and violence to other countries when that is harming our own country to start with? Respecting other cultures is very important. And democracy, you can’t just go into a country and tell everybody it’s going to be democratic. Because the people have to learn what that means, and in some cultures they have other ways of making decisions, and other ways of choosing leaders. We have to respect that.

Q: Many religious people believe their religion is the best. What’s your view?

A: From the Buddhist viewpoint, we say that all religions have something good in them. And each sentient being has their own disposition, and their own way of thinking, so it’s up to each person to find what religion makes sense to them according to their individual ways of thinking. All the religions teach ethical conducts; all the religions teach restraint from harming others; they all teach generosity and being kind. So the theological part of whether you believe in God or Allah, or Buddhists don’t believe in a Creator That part is not so important just in terms of living a wholesome life, getting along, and creating a peaceful world. In Buddhism, we’re very glad that there is multiplicity in religions, because that way everybody can choose what is suitable for them. Also, what I find interesting in Mahayana Buddhism is how they talked about the great bodhissattva superior and different courses according to different sentient being’s mentality and talent. We can even look at Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed perhaps as bodhisattvas who appeared at that time in history in order to help those people. Or we can look at Mother Teresa as a bodhisattva. I think a lot of problems we have in religion now and how religion is being used as a political force is because people aren’t really practicing the teachings that they’re saying that they are. Because I think if Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed came here and saw what people were doing in their names, they would be horrified.

Q: What was the intention of your books?

A: I never intended to write a book. What happened was that when I was in Singapore, people kept asking the same Dharma questions over and over again. Then one lady gave me a computer though I didn’t ask for one. Then another man came and said, “We have this tradition of printing book for free distribution in Singapore. If you ever want a book, I will help you print it.” These three things came together, and I started writing a series of questions and answers. My first copy was a little book called I Wonder Why published in Singapore. I later revised it twice and added more questions and answers, and it became Buddhism for Beginners that was printed in the US.

I was teaching young people in Singapore, and I remembered them saying, “Can you recommend to me a good book in English, that doesn’t have a lot of complicated Dharma vocabulary in Chinese, Tibetan, Pali, or Sanskrit, something that I can give to my mother or my friend to read?” And I can’t think of anything, so I thought: if you want something and you like something That’s how Open Heart Clear Mind and Taming the Monkey Mind came out.

Transforming the Heart is actually a book by my teacher Geshe Jampa Tegchok. He gave me some of his teachings and said, “If you want to, please make these into a book.” So I did.

Blossoms of the Dharma came about because in 1996, I helped to organize a three-week educational program for Buddhist nuns in Bodhigaya. We had nuns from Taiwan and Western nuns that gave talks and teachings. I edited the vinaya teachings from that to make a book called Choosing Simplicity, a Commentary on the Bhikshuni Pratimoksha (the nuns’ vows.) I made the talks of Western and Asian nuns into the book Blossoms of the Dharma. Because I felt we need more information about monasticism, and also we need to hear the nuns’ voices, what do women do, because most things are done by men.

Q: What is your vision for Sravasti Abbey?

A: People who grew up in the West need a monastery in the West where they can train. In the Tibetan tradition in America, there is not a training monastery. There are a few monks and nuns living here and there, but not a monastery where you can actually go and get trained or be supported. The situation of the Western monastics in the Tibetan tradition now is different than other monastics. Because the Tibetans themselves are refugees, they can’t support the Western monastics. In fact, they look to the Westerners to help support the Tibetan monasteries, because they have to build their monasteries in the refugee community in India. So the Western monastics in the Tibetan tradition have no support. There is no church that takes care of us; the Tibetan community can’t take care of us. People are trying to keep their vows, but how do you keep your vows when you have to somehow get money just to eat, and to have a place to live? For that reason, it’s very difficult for people to keep their vows. I ordained 26 years ago, and somehow I managed and never worked at a job. But there were times when it’s quite difficult for me financially. And then I see other people now who had a job, but they had to put on lay clothes and grew their hair out. How can you live like a monastic if you have to do that just to survive? I feel a monastery is really essential so that these people can live and train.

Also there is so much need in this country and other Western countries for dharma teachers in English. If you have a monastery, then people who have studied and practiced can become teachers in English, and they can come out and help the community.

The 3^rd thing is that lots of lay people live a very stressful life, and they can come and stay in the monastery, and live with the community, maybe do some retreat, learn the Dharma, offer service to the community. They need some place for them to go where they can get in touch with their inner dharma practice and their own spiritual values. And it will be nice to have activities for young people there. So that’s kind of my vision. I want it to be in a rural setting, where there is lots of land, where also the beauty of nature helps relax the mind, but close enough to the city so that people can come. And also a large piece of land, so that you don’t have a housing development or shopping mall next door 20 years from now. The most pressing need is the financial support to get the land and to build the buildings we need. Without the place you can’t do anything else. Once we have the land, we can start building on it. Then we will need furniture, and equipments, etc. We can also use people who have talent-architects, construction workers, different fund raising skills, and computer skills. I think it would be nice to get more of the teachings in English (on the web site www.thubtenchrondron.org) translated into Chinese and other languages. Then we can have more books in Chinese. We can have more short, informal (not technical language) books in English and Chinese for children, so they can read too.

Q: How would you proceed in teaching Dharma to the young generation in US?

A: First of all, I try, in terms of the structure of the course, short Dharma talks, short meditations, and also discussion groups and exercises. Because I think the kids can learn along when they can voice their own thoughts. For example, years ago when I was in Singapore with some students, I led a discussion group and the questions was “What qualities do you look for in friends?” So this is something that teenagers think about, “What makes somebody a good friend?” So I asked everybody to go around and talk about it. It was very interesting that, in the end, when we assembled all the things that people said, it became apparent that abandoning the 10 negative actions, and doing the 10 positive actions was the root of being a good friend. Because kids would say, “I want a friend who I can trust, somebody who doesn’t talk bad behind my back.” There it is, right in the list of 10 positive/negative actions. So if you do it through discussions like that, and then you say, “Look, the Buddha said something similar.” Then they go, “Oh yeah, the Buddha is really smart.” So this opens their mind to think about other things the Buddha said.

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Who am I, in comparison to Him

莊雯婷 Wendy Chuang

He, whose body, speech and mind is pure without motive.
I, whose body, speech and mind is impure with motives.
He, who gives and forgives, will not remember once done.
I, who give and forgive, will always remember once done.
He, who's compassionate for all beings, acts and speaks with diligence.
I, who am compassionate for self and my surroundings, act and speak without diligence.
He, who understands the law of karma, the functioning of life, and its illusory nature, practices with mindfulness.
I, who questions the cause and effect, the meaning of life, and the truth of nature, practice with meaningfulness.
He, who accumulates merit and practices Bodhicitta, walks on a Bodhisattva path.
I, who accumulate wealth and practice planning, walk on a Samsara path.